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13 November 2008 @ 11:54 pm
Late night Thursday...  
Boy, I knew people would be squeeing over the SPN episode, and I wish I felt the same. Sera Gamble's obsession over Jared was definitely on display, and if you're a big Sam girl then this was the episode for you. Most everyone loves this ep but me, I can tell already!

Up late trying to get some writing done but being distracted by J2 fic and by stuff on TV. Life On Mars detoured through that "people talking into your coma" territory that I find so interesting (plus there's my unnatural inability to resist Harvey Keitel).

I thought I was home free after it was over, but (!!!) Bruce Willis is on Letterman doing pure crack in pretty much every possible direction. The High School Musical 3 "excerpt" was the pinnacle of an utterly weird guest appearance that began with a Sarah Palin wig and glasses. Oh, Bruce, how do you crack me up like this? And what the heck were you smoking all day?

ETA: Craig Ferguson. I should just turn the TV off, and force myself into the Tony/Rhodey mode (the muse is being coy).

ETA2: Anthony LaPaglia as Daphne's blowhard mooching brother on Frasier. *sigh*

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ErinRua: Deanerinrua on November 14th, 2008 08:11 am (UTC)
*blinks* The Sam girls? But ... I've seen so many fans complaining about the *lack* of Sam, how it's been all about Dean, and now ...

*cries*

My fandom is making me crazy. Well, I may be the only one, but I liked this episode. A lot. I'm sorry it didn't do much for you. *hugs* :-)
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: Sam & Dean Genhalfshellvenus on November 14th, 2008 08:19 am (UTC)
Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I just disliked so much of where canon went with that episode that I didnt' think about the fact that we are finally, finally seeing some of what-the-hell while Dean was down in Hell.

No, I was thinking more of the Sam girls who are always thrilled to have Jared getting it on with anybody (which happens rarely). I really didn't like the "who," and between this and the last time ("Heart") I kind of feel like Sera Gamble's porning all over Jared and it makes me feel weird.

Plus, you know, I'm not enjoying the whole Apocalyptic story arc much and I like it better when the show does not dwell. This was a majorly dwelling episode, which ended on a cliffhanger (!).

IDK. Felt like clumsy story-telling from start to finish, and then there was the Jared-porn, and I know that probably almost everyone else (as I said!) is squeeing all over the place.

You're in the big bell curve-- I'm the one who's more out on the fringe for this episode. :)
ErinRua: Deanerinrua on November 14th, 2008 08:40 am (UTC)
ARGH! I had a nice reply all typed up, and my freaking Internet Explorer froze up! :-( I've got to get this thing into the shop ....

ANYhow .... LOL, I'm not in the bell curve in liking this episode: if anything, it's the contrary. I think most of fandom has blown sky high with outrage, and poor Sam has been condemned by fans just as he's been by the angels. *shrugs* Gotta pick my battles, I guess. ;-)

But yeah, I understand not liking the Apocalyptic thing. It's a long, long way from the old Saving People, Hunting Things that we got used to.

Oh! Right, and I also mentioned the Jared!porn in my lost post - LOL, I totally didn't even think of that. All I saw was Sam, this totally effed-up, wrecked, on-his-knees, no reason to live *disaster* of a Sam, who'd already tried to barter himself into Hell - and was refused. He was so screwed up, so destroyed, so just plain damn guilty and ruined ... That the sex came off to me looking like self destruction. I didn't even see it as anything else. I didn't even see it as "omg!hawe!" I just saw ... pain.

*wibbles*

Anyhow, if we don't agree on this episode, it's all good! I still think you're awesomesauce. *G* :-)
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: Sam & Dean Hughalfshellvenus on November 14th, 2008 08:48 am (UTC)
LOL, I'm not in the bell curve in liking this episode: if anything, it's the contrary. I think most of fandom has blown sky high with outrage, and poor Sam has been condemned by fans just as he's been by the angels. *shrugs* Gotta pick my battles, I guess. ;-)

Hah! We apparently have very different f-lists, because I'm seeing just the opposite. Though a lot of Sam fangirls have posted tonight. I'll see what tomorrow brings, if I even look. Sometimes I just don't want to analyze every episode to death with other fans, you know? I want to have my first reaction, let it sit, think about it later, maybe post or not, discuss or not. The amount of post-ep discussion every week almost wears me out, overall.

It's a long, long way from the old Saving People, Hunting Things that we got used to.
Which I really liked. I liked the 'lesser angst' of S1, when it was all about Daddy-tension and Sam-wants-to-leave-tension. And I like the MotW format, myself. For shows overall, I notice that the ones that are easier to rewatch are the ones that are less heavily tied to a longer story arc. You can rewatch any House episode, because the Case is always bigger than the background Arc. But E.R.? It's more like a soap opera, where the trend of the background dominates and you feel lost just dropping in out-of-sequence.

That the sex came off to me looking like self destruction. I didn't even see it as anything else. I didn't even see it as "omg!hawe!" I just saw ... pain.
I'd love to see it that way too, but big muscular Sam lifting the little woman around and all is like a personal kink for Sera Gamble, and all I'm going to hear about it for the most part is "OMG, Sam is so HAWT!" The number of people who find him using demon powers hot just boggles my mind-- Jared's expressions and all border on making me giggle there, so I have the opposite reaction.

Anyhow, if we don't agree on this episode, it's all good! I still think you're awesomesauce. *G* :-)
Right back at you! And I thought you were off house-sitting and Internet-deprived this week. Done already?
ErinRua: Carry onerinrua on November 14th, 2008 09:04 am (UTC)
yeah, I'm home just tonight. YAY! I thought I'd be there until the weekend, but the lady came home a day or so early. Which I'm glad! It's sooo good to be home in my cozy house. :-)


Actually, my immediate flist, the four or five who've posted so far, seem to've liked it. But when I took a peek out elsehwere around the fandom ... ouwch. I need to just NOT go reading other places. You're right, the post-ep discussion *is* exhausting, and I need to just avoid it and hang with my little flisties and do my own thing. The excrusiating nit-picking I see ends up sapping my enjoyment of the show, and I just ... why subject myself to that?

So yeah. I need to follow your lead and never mind the over-analysing. ;-)

Okay, brain is tired, can't think any more, but I understand about liking the simply stories. I should one of these days go back and revisit some of that early stuff, just for nostalgia's sake. I bet it would be an interesting visit. :-)

Gotta sleep now, talk atcha later! *HUGS!*
The Good, The Bad and The Lanathelana on November 14th, 2008 08:59 am (UTC)
Wheeeeee! You watch Life On Mars!
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphorshalfshellvenus on November 14th, 2008 09:12 am (UTC)
:D That was pretty much a foregone conclusion once they put Harvey Keitel in the cast.

Seriously, even if the rest of the show did nothing for me I swear it would be on in the background so I could stalk the parts of the storyline where Harvey shows up. :0
The Good, The Bad and The Lanathelana on November 14th, 2008 09:19 am (UTC)
:D That was pretty much a foregone conclusion once they put Harvey Keitel in the cast

Hah, same for me :) But the show can actually be quite charming. Sometimes it can be a bit all over the place, but the characters are really likable. I hope they bring future mentor back as a regular. I liked him.
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphorshalfshellvenus on November 14th, 2008 09:33 am (UTC)
I hope they bring future mentor back as a regular. I liked him.
I did too-- I've seen and liked him before. And I really liked how they tied up the end of last week's episode with him. The writing there felt much stronger than any of the episodes yet, and I really liked that conclusion. Or maybe I'm just a sentimental sap. ;)
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The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: Sam & Dean Genhalfshellvenus on November 14th, 2008 06:12 pm (UTC)
On thinking about it, it WAS good to see some of the time Sam spent without Dean (though it Jossed the heck out of the story I wrote about it), AND it was painfully overdue.

But the whole Sam/Ruby thing-- and OMG, I'm on the verge of mailing Sera Gamble a vibrator and photoshoot pictures of Jared-- I hate that his character went there, I hate that my immediate thought was the perving over Jared rather than that this felt like "Sam," and I hate the santification of Ruby.

Not to mention the 60-90-second return "slice" after the commercial break into a cliffhanger ending. God, was that ever clumsy. :(
(Deleted comment)
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: Sam & Dean Genhalfshellvenus on November 15th, 2008 03:10 am (UTC)
And I think it's meant to show his decline. I hate it, but I will deal with it.
Oh, I agree with you there-- I just think that it was so badly written that it didn't feel like the Sam we know. Does that make sense?

This show uses TBC way too often. :/
Don't they pretty much ALL? I think the I.m.p.o.r.t.a.n.c.e. of story arcs tends to be hugely overestimated by TV writers in general. ;)
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The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: Diner Deanhalfshellvenus on November 15th, 2008 09:11 am (UTC)
:D Season One is still my favorite. The mileage I got out of "Shadows" and "Scarecrow" alone was incredible, fic-wise. :)
cindy: the dean show - sam sez tsuki_no_bara on November 14th, 2008 03:36 pm (UTC)
i didn't like it either, and it sounds like i didn't like it for the same reasons you didn't. most of the episode just felt like awkward setup for the flashbacks, i don't particularly like the biblical apocalypse storyline, i was kind of unimpressed with the sex altho really not surprised, altho i agree with erinrua that it felt more like desperation and pain and loneliness than anything else, and i highly doubt it ever happened again.

(i don't find evil!sam that hot or even that interesting, either, and boy do i feel in the minority for that. different kinks, i guess. also i only read one reaction, which was shortshort and about the sex scene, so i don't actually know what the rest of my flist thinks.)

i did like that we finally got to see what sam was up to in the months dean was dead, instead of the show beating around the bush and coyly hinting and whatever. it's nice to have some actual fact, even if i don't love the fact. (and did dean's-dead sam seem completely different from dean-returns! sam, even tho only four months passed, or was it just me?)

i was actually thinking about this this morning, and how spn s4 is almost unrecognizable from s1 and even s2. it's like an entirely different show that just happens to have some of the same characters and some of the same background. the tenor has totally changed.

topic shift! so is life on mars good? did you see the uk version?

Edited at 2008-11-14 03:38 pm (UTC)
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: Sam & Dean Hughalfshellvenus on November 14th, 2008 06:21 pm (UTC)
most of the episode just felt like awkward setup for the flashbacks
Yes-- the transitions back and forth weren't done well at all. They felt so contrived, rather than like the past was just happening. Why not just SHOW us the past, and then have Sam be done with the talking rather than the flitting back-and-forth? Plus, I can't imagine that Dean of all characters would call "TMI" on descriptions of sex, even if they involve Sam and Demon!Ruby. I can see him getting angry about it, and saying, "Enough with the detail on that, it's pissing me off." That would be in character for Dean (and his feelings about Ruby, too). But the squeamish "TMI"? WHO said that again? That's Sam's character.

altho i agree with erinrua that it felt more like desperation and pain and loneliness than anything else, and i highly doubt it ever happened again.
I wish it had felt solely like that and not like Sera Gamble was getting her kicks off of Jared. :( And given Ruby-in-her-underwear in Sam's motel room in 4x01, there's the implication that it did NOT stop there. Even more "Ewww."

i don't find evil!sam that hot or even that interesting, either, and boy do i feel in the minority for that.
Most of my f-list finds the squinting and thrusting out the hand "hot" for some reason that I really don't understand. How? How is that hot?

it's nice to have some actual fact, even if i don't love the fact.
Yes-- I agree with you there. The background was overdue.

and did dean's-dead sam seem completely different from dean-returns! sam, even tho only four months passed, or was it just me?)
No-- other people have said the same thing. The "Dean's-dead" Sam is what we would have expected. The "Dean's-back" Sam seemed to be thinking first and foremost, "Wow, is this ever going to cramp my style" rather than "OMG Dean, I thought I'd never see you again!"

i was actually thinking about this this morning, and how spn s4 is almost unrecognizable from s1 and even s2.
Early S3 felt that same way to me too (as in, WHO are these characters now?). I think Kripke is utterly forgetting the strengths of his show (the boys, who they are, how the related to each other) in favor of this big fat Apocalyptic story he wants to tell-- like nobody's ever done THAT before. *eye roll*

so is life on mars good? did you see the uk version?
I like it, though I'm usually trying to muscle out a little writing while it's on. I didn't see the U.K. version, so I'm getting a fresh perspective on it. Really good cast, and OMG the clothes and scenery-- it's creepy, having lived through that once already!


cindy: spn - serious!intense!sam (by ilelibertetsuki_no_bara on November 14th, 2008 09:27 pm (UTC)
>>And given Ruby-in-her-underwear in Sam's motel room in 4x01, there's the implication that it did NOT stop there. Even more "Ewww."<<

well, just because i don't think he ever slept with her again, that doesn't mean i think she stopped trying. :D and yeah, i thought dean's "tmi!" was ooc too. oy.

i think some of the love for evil!sam is love for the hotness of evil, period, and not necessarily the squinting and hand... thrusting. ("thrusting out the hand" did not immediately bring to mind sam doing his "i will exorcise you with the power of grayskull my brain", let's just say that.) evil's sexy, i guess.

musesfool made a comment about sam's reaction in the motel room when dean and bobby show up in lazarus rising, altho it seems mostly aimed at people who are all upset that sam lied to dean about ruby. (which, well, why would he tell dean the truth? he knows how dean feels, and telling him that ruby's been helping him develop his powers is just asking for trouble.) but you could possibly interpret sam's reaction to the fact that a. he was caught WAY off-guard, because, you know, dean was DEAD, and b. he had to cover for ruby. or ruby had to cover for herself and he had to go along with it, and he's just not that good at thinking on his feet. (whereas if he'd had a cover story worked out ahead of time....) which i can kind of buy, and i think the lying was in-character, but still, sam seemed to adjust really fast to dean being dead in those few months, and seemed pretty settled in to his partnership with ruby. he didn't seem as hard and dark as one might expect, freaky power and demon cohabitation notwithstanding. if we hadn't had mystery spot, i don't think it would have pinged me as hard as it did.

someone burned me disks of the uk life on mars, but i haven't watched them yet. i was mostly curious to see how the two versions compared, but i don't think it matters as long as the us version is worth watching.
sassy, classy, and a bit smart-assy: Iknowrightbadboy_fangirl on November 14th, 2008 05:25 pm (UTC)
I love LIFE ON MARS! Isn't it great? I adore Annie, she's my favorite character, and it drives me crazy that she isn't *real* or is she?

Such a good show. I hope it doesn't get canceled, because it will force me to rent the UK version so I find out what happens.

I'm going to have to YouTube this Bruce Willis thing you mention, because it sounds hilarious. I think everyone forgets that he's quite gifted comedically. *g*
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: heh-hehhalfshellvenus on November 14th, 2008 06:24 pm (UTC)
I adore Annie, she's my favorite character, and it drives me crazy that she isn't *real* or is she?
I hate to think of her not being real, but at the same time I love the rich 'fantasy' (or whatever's going on) that this character has created in his head. Most of which will not let up on nagging him constantly about being nuts. ;)

I'm going to have to YouTube this Bruce Willis thing you mention, because it sounds hilarious. I think everyone forgets that he's quite gifted comedically. *g*
You should! And send me the link if you find it. :D

There's being "comedically gifted," and then there's the wall-to-wall display of loopiness that went on last night. I mean, he came prepared to be solidly weird for the duration. :D
sassy, classy, and a bit smart-assy: Linc gorgeousbadboy_fangirl on November 17th, 2008 06:03 am (UTC)
Here they are:
part one
part two

SO FUNNY AND WEIRD!

Did you see the previews for next week's Life on Mars? Dean Winters is playing Sam's dad! Since he's not on Terminator anymore, I'm glad he turned up somewhere else!

Also, another question: slash pairs on LoM? You see any sparkage there? Just curious!
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphorshalfshellvenus on November 17th, 2008 06:15 am (UTC)
I should have posted sooner-- I found them over at youtube, because I'd mentioned them to my husband. He wanted to see the Sarah Palin getup, and who could resist the bizarre HSM3 'cameo'? Oh, that was funny!

Then, as a result, we wound up watching the "Bruce's Outrageous Suit" appearance on a past Letterman. And I showed my daughter the HSM3 'excerpt' because she actually likes HSM. She thought it was hilariously bizarre. ;)

I saw that Dean Winters was going to make an appearnce next week, though I *koff* had the sound off at this point and all the details of who/why were lost. I'm... very big on the mute button.

I don't see any slash pairings on LoM thus far (wrong kind of chemistry), perhaps in part because between the clothes and the attitudes all the guys from the past kind of freak out Sam. And heaven knows, they have no interest in each other. Michael Imperioli is the schmuck you love to hate on this series, and I guess I feel a little less sorry that he didn't become a regular on L&O. At least he has a series home as a cop (though they're worlds apart!)

Edited at 2008-11-17 06:16 am (UTC)
blackcat333_99blackcat333_99 on November 17th, 2008 12:20 am (UTC)
Random LJ stalking here, but I just wanted to say word to the issues with this ep. Not hot or sexy for me. Nor sympathetic. I won't inflict my LJ post on the ep on you - suffice to say that I just didn't buy Sam this ep, and I'm distressed that I feel this way.

Ah well. Scrub, rinse and looking forward to next week, at least.
The Coalition For Disturbing Metaphors: Sam & Dean Genhalfshellvenus on November 17th, 2008 06:37 am (UTC)
suffice to say that I just didn't buy Sam this ep, and I'm distressed that I feel this way.
I wound up chatting more at TWoP on this ep, because the reaction was more consistently negative over there than here at LJ. For the most part (though not entirely), those on the "Yay" side seemed to be heavily on the "OMG, Sam was so HAWT! SHOULDERS!" wavelength.

Some of the things that came up in discussion over there, which solidified how I felt about it, was that it was a really poorly-written episode in most respects. It felt like a big setup for the flashback (i.e., contrived), and we kept cutting away from the flashback for Dean's reaction (distracting and occasionally OOC). One part of Sam's flashback was Ruby getting the coma-girl's body, which Sam did not witness so what was it doing in his flashback? Except that the show wanted to anvil us over the head with "Not non-consensual-- look, the body's basically a dead Jane Doe and nobody cares about her! So the sex is okay!"

Most people really had issue with Sam being possibly despondent (but mostly drunk) for one month, making (from what we saw) a single half-assed effort to switch places with Dean, at which point Ruby showed up and got him back into fighting demons again via the healing power of girl-parts. Then became practically a replacement for Dean, to the point where the REAL Dean showing up post-resurrection at the motel seemed to be hugely inconvenient to Sam (to judge from his reaction).

It felt as if the episode did a huge disservice to the character of Sam, and that it sped through his story for the purposes of getting to Ruby's story and her epic f**k scene with Sam. I didn't wait through 8 episodes to watch Sam's character be assassinated like that. :(

There's also the fact that Jared apparently can't play 'drunk' to save his life, and that Ruby 2.0 is an absolutely dreadful actress-- those didn't help the episode either. I've seen people try to interpret Ruby 2.0's newly cowardly behavior, but in fact... both the fly-by performers (the 'secretary' and the maid) whom Ruby briefly inhabited in this episode were more consistent with the original Ruby 1.0 portrayal. Either one of them would have been a more convincing choice than the actress we appear to be stuck with.

I'm hoping next week's episode is better, though I'm worried about that for other reasons. Looks like Dean's getting some romance next week (which I hope actually works with the story and doesn't feel gratuitous, as in "Dean hasn't sexed up anyone in a couple of episodes, must be time.") The whole Castiel/Uriel angle with the killing of Anna seems like it's going to be an anvil-fest, and since I'm not digging the Apocolyptic angle to the story arc anyway, doing it badly is something I fear at every turn! Or the brothers going to war against each other (because I wouldn't put it past Kripke to do that, and it would really piss me off).

It appears that a lot of viewers aside from us felt that this wasn't much the Sam that we know and love, and that it really should have been. It was important that he feel like Sam in this episode, and to be told that THIS is what those months without Dean looked like... I just feel cheated and distanced by the whole thing, rather than the gut-wrenching empathy I expect to feel.
blackcat333_99blackcat333_99 on November 17th, 2008 08:13 pm (UTC)
I just feel cheated and distanced by the whole thing, rather than the gut-wrenching empathy I expect to feel.

Well, you rather succinctly put into words what I spent a page or two saying here, (in case you feel clicky).

http://blackcat333-99.livejournal.com/102070.html#cutid1

To be fair -- I have now read two reaction posts that have helped me a little bit with my negative feelings, but I wish more of what I saw discussed had been present on an emotional level in the ep, rather than just having to reason it out. Most of the time I don't comment on the acting or directing unless it's for a compliment, but maybe that also was just a bit of a factor in this particular case. Not that anyone did a "bad" job, necessarily, but just that an emphasis was put on creating an emotional context that I could not relate to.

I don't want or need Sam to have a halo on his head. I appreciate flaws and mistakes characters make and learn and grow from. Problem for me was how those flashbacks were presented, and Sam's manner of telling Dean in the present, didn't leave me feeling like he saw those past actions as mistakes to learn from. Which -- kills my sympathy.

I am looking forward to the angel stuff next week, even with the anticipated anvils, simply because it looks like Dean's gonna be facing some hard choices, as forecast in ITGPSW, and also because it looks like after the several episodes of Dean getting gradually more chummy with his angel there may be some new conflict brought back into the mix, which works for me. I ... may have a thing for Dean rebelling against so-called authority when he's acting on the courage of his own convictions. Now THAT'S hawt, to me. :)